Industry Interview - Rafael Chandler - Dread Developer

**Interview originally conducted in March of 2008.**

This time around I get to sit down (cyberly speaking, again) with Rafael Chandler from Neoplastic Press. Rafael is the developer of the independent horror role-playing game known as Dread: The First Book of Pandemonium. It is no secret that I am a horror fan, and love a good horror RPG when I can find one. So I was very intrigued when I first started reading about Dread and anxiously awaited its release. So let's get right to the questions.

For those that will read this and might not know about Dread, give us your quick and dirty explanation of the game.
Dread is a game about Disciples, demon hunters who wage a war on the front lines of the Last War. Wielding horrific magic and performing ill-advised stunts, they hunt the demons that feed on the flesh and spirits of innocent victims. Dread is brutal, profane, and bloody. It's also fast-paced and rules-light, making it ideal for one-shots, pick-up games, and short-term campaigns.

What made you decide to produce your own system?
I've been tinkering with my own designs since I got into gaming in the 80s. A few years back, I started a new gaming group. None of them knew anything about tabletop RPGs, but they were all really enthusiastic about the idea. However, our sessions were few and far between, so a lot of the rules systems we tried simply didn't work. Character generation took too long, or the fights dragged on and ate up too much time, leaving us just a few minutes at either end of the session. This wasn't much fun, so I started working on a system of my own. Since I've always been a fan of horror RPGs, it was inevitable that my game would be a horror title. After spending some time on the development of Dread, I decided to make it commercially available. It was produced on a shoestring budget and released in October 2002. A few years later, I started working on a new edition, which was released in August 2007.

Did you consider making it a D20 product?
No, it was never an option. I only played D&D 3E a few times, but found the system too complicated. I'm still playing 2E, in fact.

I know you have a pretty successful career in the video game industry, so why branch out to a horror themed RPG?
I love my job. Video game writing and design are really fulfilling. However, I've spent much of my time working on military shooters -- the Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, and SOCOM series. Though I enjoy what I do, I still feel the urge to create something that's entirely my own, without the parameters of an established series. Also, I like the idea of a spell that causes your intestines to turn into lampreys, rip through the flesh of your abdomen, and attack your enemies. This is something that you will not see in a Tom Clancy video game anytime soon.

What do you feel sets Dread apart from the rest of the RPG systems currently available?
Dread is simple. The concept is simple: demons are bad, you are worse. Go forth and destroy. The character creation is simple: there are three classes, so you can either investigate, fight, or cast spells. Go. Character generation is simple, taking a typical group of total strangers about ten minutes. The rules are simple enough that I can explain them to people in about five minutes. And the game's primary hooks is simple: everything about Dread is violent, gory, and yet amusing in a fairly sick way.

What is more important to you: Game Mechanics or Story Elements?
If I have to choose, I always go with story elements. I've run horror games using all kinds of rules. When I listen to players talk about great moments, they usually talk about what happened, what they did, what their enemies did, what the characters said to each other. These are the moments that we remember. The numbers that you roll are less important.

Can you give those of us that simply get to enjoy the game after completion a little insight into what you have to do to develop something like Dread?
Great question! Now, I'm no expert -- I've only released one game, and there are plenty of people with more experience. But I'll do my best.

I treat tabletop RPG development the same way that I treat video game development. Here are the stages:

1. Concept: The idea behind the game. Dragons, wizards, ninjas, cyborgs, whatever.
2. Scope: The goal for the product. A PDF, a hardcover book, a spiral-bound manual, etc.
3. Mechanics: The conflict resolution system.
4. Outline: A rough outline of the book's content.
5. Alpha testing: Internal testing with my gaming group.
6. Revision: A re-working of the core rules based on feedback from alpha testing.
7. Beta testing: External testing with numerous groups.
8. Revision: A re-working of the core rules based on feedback from beta testing.
9. Writing: Creating the text of the game. Usually in MS Word.
10. Art: Commissioning the illustrations from various artists.
11. Proofreading: At least one person, other than myself, proofreads the text.
12. Layout: When art and text are ready, they're laid out.
13. Publication: Submission to Lulu. A print copy is ordered as a proof before going live.

I know you are currently working on the next major book, Scorn: The Second Book of Pandemonium, as well as a Pent: The First Gospel of Pandemonium, which is a collection of adventure scenarios. Are additional products for the system easier to make once the overall system is in place?
Yes, absolutely. Pent, for example, is a collection of scenarios that I've been running over the past few years. Spite: The Second Book of Pandemonium (formerly known as Scorn, but I changed the name in order to avoid confusion with another game) will feature rules for long-term campaigns. This is something I've been working on since I started creating the new version of Dread in 2004. Once the core rulebook is out the door, it's a lot easier to make time to work on ancillary projects. They're easier to tackle, because the core rules have been created, and because they're shorter projects. Also, you've got the momentum generated by positive user feedback, reviews, and sales -- these can help you keep your enthusiasm level high.

What was your biggest challenge in bringing Dread to market?
The first edition of Dread was 180 pages long, and there was a lot of wasted space. Also, the font was large. The new edition of Dread is packed with information, and the text is much smaller. It's about 280 pages long. Writing a manual that thorough is a really time-consuming process, and you have to be committed to the project. My day job involves a lot of creative writing, and maintaining an interest in my own projects when the night comes around is quite a challenge. It's easy to blow off you own game when you're not feeling particularly enthusiastic. But I really wanted Dread to be a game of substance.

What do you want people to know about Dread in general? What is its main selling point for you?
Dread's core concept is a synthesis of splatterpunk horror and police procedural. I love horror movies, the bloodier the better. Same goes for horror novels. Of course, these elements need to be welded to a strong narrative; films like The Descent and Creep are both gruesome and thought-provoking. I'm also a fan of crime stories. For instance, I'm really into TV shows like The Shield and The Wire; they present dark and occasionally nihilistic stories about criminals and cops, and the thin line between the two. I also read crime novels by James Ellroy and George V. Higgins, which are equally brutal and gritty. Ellroy in particular has had a serious impact on the games that I run. I recently read a review of one of his novels, which described the book as "one long scream of rage and emptiness and longing". This is an excellent description.

When these elements -- splatterpunk and street-level crime -- are fused, in my mind, the result is Dread: a story about merciless investigators who do what must to be done in order to close a case. They use disgusting magic that horrifies normal people, and they lock horns with demons so disturbing that I've actually had players tell me they don't want to run games with some of them. The game is about monsters fighting with monsters, and the air is full of blood, bullets, and profanity. But there's no angst. This is not a game where the protagonists get to whine about how unfair it is. You have a job, and you do it, and you leave the complaints at the door.

I picked up the book as soon as it came out and I have thoroughly enjoyed it. I have also run several demos of the game and have had a lot of positive feedback. I will definitely be running this game at some of our future quarterly events.
You know why? Because you are THE MAN.

Would you care to drop a few hints to our members and Dread fans about what’s in the pipeline for this game system?
I'm wrapping up work on Pent, which includes over a dozen scenarios and a dozen adventure hooks. The art in this game is just sick. The Shurull, Wreziam, Remarec, Ravaqat, and Nethasq (to name just a few) are presented in all their hideous glory. The scenarios are also ready-to-run, meaning that a GM can pick these up and go with them with virtually no prep time. Spite, which will be released later this year, features information about federal agencies, cults, and corporations. One corporation in particular, bioLogical laboratories, has been conducting experiments of an infernal nature. The results are even more horrific than the demons found in the pages of Dread. Players can look forward to throwing down with Vamputees, Skinotaurs, and Abominortions. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. The book also features information about the Last War, new demons, new stunts (like the Organ Grinder and the Bloody Sanchez), and rules for the creation of anti-demon war machines.

Let’s say you are personally running a Dread game….What are a few of the mood songs for the night?
Akercocke: Leviathan
Behemoth: Be Without Fear
Behemoth: The Nephilim Rising
Bolt Thrower: Anti-Tank
Bolt Thrower: Mercenary
Dark Tranquillity: Terminus
Daylight Dies: Dismantling Devotion
Enslaved: Ruun
Napalm Death: Hung
Napalm Death: The Code Is Red
Shape of Despair: Quiet These Paintings Are
Slayer: Disciple
Vader: Apopheniac

What is your favorite part of Dread? You know, if you had to scrap the all but one thing to start the process over, what would you have to keep?
The demons. I'm really proud of them. Each one is a walking scenario hook, making the GM's job a lot easier. Furthermore, these are nothing like the Judeo-Christian demons of legend. They're nightmarish, tentacled, dripping with fluids... and yet very familiar. Some prey on innocent victims, and others are drawn to vice (murder, infidelity, child abuse). These entities are genuinely foreign and repulsive, but I tried to mold them around the newspaper headlines that disturbed me most. They are our shadow. They are a reflection of what is wrong with the world.

Do you have a favorite Dread character type?
Characters with the Discipline of Sorcery are a blast, because they alone can perform exorcisms. As with everything else in my game, exorcisms are bloody and painful. But why wouldn't they be? You're dragging a demon from the body of a victim -- of course it's going to be a gruesome affair.

Now for my left field question of the day. We have some tattoo fans in RGC…So do you have any personal ink, Rafael?
Negative. But if I ever get one, it will be the Slayer logo.

A few of our forum members had some questions for you as well.

skeloric wants to know about these issues:

What do you see as the state of the industry and what do you see as the cause of that state? Moreover, if you see it as poor, what would you recommend in order to improve it? Contrariwise, if you see it as good what do you see needs to continue to keep it that way?
I think that the industry is doing well. Decades of growth and experimentation, coupled with the advent of the Web, have resulted in a very broad and deep playing field. Enthusiasts have more games to choose from than ever before, and game developers have access to a wide range of publishing options. For independent game designers like myself, things have never been better.

What issues or opinions do you have concerning the D20 system of WotC?
It looks really interesting! I ran a 3E game during the summer of 2000, but found the rules too complicated, so I went back to 2E. Other than that, I haven't had any exposure to the D20 system.

Have you ever heard of TORG, and what do you think of it?
I have heard of TORG, and it sounds like a really intriguing system. I haven't played it yet, however.

What other established system/settings have you looked at and what opinions or concerns do you have concerning them?
I'm a fan of horror RPGs in general. I'm really fond of Beyond the Supernatural, Chill, Whispering Vault, and Call of Cthulhu. BtS was a fairly fun game, if somewhat compromised by silly notions (for example, "Supernatural or Super-Nuts?"). This is a weakness of the Palladium games in general, however. Chill was a solid game, but I didn't like the book's look and feel -- the art direction didn't work for me, and I couldn't figure out why the accent color was purple instead of red. Splattered purple fluid looks like grape juice, as opposed to splattered red fluid (which strikes me as more appropriate for a horror game). Whispering Vault is a really fun game to read, but I'm not sure how one would play it. I've got to try it one of these days. Call of Cthulhu is a phenomenal game, provided that one's players are in the correct frame of mind (neither cowardly not ridiculously heroic). The players have to understand that the point of the game is to fight a losing battle, knowing in advance that your character will probably die or go insane.

If you ever planned to do a game in an established system/setting, which would be your choice?
I'd love to design a game set in the world of Clive Barker's novel Imajica. It's one of my favorite novels, in part because it's set in a world unlike any other I've ever read (and also because it's beautifully written). It's a modern fantasy setting that doesn't employ any of the standard tropes, instead creating something new and bizarre.

Imajica's core concept is that there are five Dominions, of which Earth is only one. The Dominions are separated by a dimension of hideous creatures, and only powerful wizards can break through from one Dominion to the next. It sounds fairly standard, but he shatters every cliche and expectation, creating a story like nothing else I've ever read. I'm reluctant to go into detail, because it's so easy to accidentally spoil the story.

I believe that a game set in that world would be a lot of fun. That being said, it's unlikely that I'd ever work in someone else's universe. I've got too many ideas of my own.

What do you consider to be the #1 "draw" to your game Dread?
Tough question! Is is the nonstop gore, blasphemy, and profanity? Is it the brutal and repulsive magic? Is it the list of unspeakably vile demons?

I guess I would say that Dread's biggest draw is its simplicity. I play a lot of convention games and pick-up games. Also, my gaming group consists of a bunch of guys with resposibilities -- careers, families, other hobbies. Consequently, I find that complex settings and rules systems just don't work for me anymore. Twenty years ago, when I spent my summer vacation playing RPGs on a daily basis, complexity was an asset. But no longer. At this point, I'm looking for a simple idea that's driven by a simple rules system.

Dread: The First Book of Pandemonium delivers both -- you're a demon hunter, so find the demons. In every case, you roll a pool of d12s and compare the high numbers. Done. This makes it extremely easy to explain the concept and mechanics at con games, pick-ups, and new players.

This simplicity even extends to the book's layout. Though there are dozens of spells to choose from, I've set up lists in the Magic section that make it easy for a player to pick a few defensive spells, a few attack spells, a manipulation spell, and off you go. You can blitz through character creation for an entire group in twenty minutes.

I should note that the system is simple, but not simplistic -- though the core mechanic is easy to learn, there are hidden depths that players start to pick up on as they play the game. It's not a boring system.

Is the RPG community dying out?
I don't know of any evidence to indicate this. For what it's worth, things seem to be going well. Admittedly, this is still a niche hobby, but the release of 4E should give the industry a shot in the arm.

A note about the RPG community vs. the RPG industry: I don't know what sales are like, but I'm not sure how important they are to the community (though they are, obviously, essential to the industry). After all, RPGs are not packaged experiences -- they're opportunities for experience. A book or DVD is purchased, experienced, and may then be experienced again (although the experience will be the same each time). An RPG, on the other hand, is purchased and then utilized to create a unique experience. This can be repeated, with different results, indefinitely.

As a result, the RPG community could continue to flourish, even if RPG sales dropped to almost nothing. The millions of books that have already been purchased could continue to generate new games for years to come.

It's also important to consider web activity. Not all gamers are sharing their thoughts and experiences online. Those who are posting on web sites, forums, and blogs, only constitute a small fraction of the fan base. As a result, any theories or conclusions based on web activity are probably inaccurate.

Why do you believe that people tend not to reach out to get new people into RPGs and can this trend be reversed?
Well... I don't believe that people tend not to reach out. In fact, I've observed the opposite. Of course, there are exceptions, but from what I have seen, most gamers are only too happy to tell their friends about this great pastime. A few years back, I moved from Virginia to North Carolina. I made some new friends here, and it turned out that none of them had ever played D&D. These were video game enthusiasts, Trekkies, guys who could quote the LOTR and Star Wars movies. What the hell, I said. You need to play some D&D. I broked out the 2E rule books and off we went. It was great.

I've heard plenty of similar stories. Sure, you hear about social stigma attached to games, but I haven't really encountered it. Bear in mind that I work in the video game industry, so many of the people that I work with are also tabletop gamers. Results will vary wildly, I'm sure, depending on one's career.

Have you heard of the recent West End Games decision to go OGL on its D6 system and what are your thoughts on the trend surfacing?
I hadn't heard, but I believe that open licenses are good business sense. They increase interest in products, build communities, and can grant participants a sense of ownership in a product.

In general, to what extent does system enhance setting and how much does setting influence system?
When I was working on Dread, I started with the concept of a group of demon hunters called Disciples. While brainstorming ideas for a resolution mechanic, I realized that the d12 was perfect -- Jesus had 12 Disciples, and each face of the d12 is a pentagon, which in my mind evoked pentacles and pentagons. This mixture of the holy and the unholy fit the game's concept (demon hunters who may or may not be working for Heaven, and who themselves are hunted by angels).

The more time I spent working on the core idea, the more I realized that Dread would need a fast-paced, rules-light system in order to keep the momentum going. And the Disciple 12 system was born.

So, for me, the setting influenced the design of the system.

Additionally, has there ever been a system/setting combo that you have seen that to your mind worked not at all?
No, though I have played a few games whose rules systems required some tinkering in order to get right. The Beyond the Supernatural system, for example, needed some adjustment in order to work for my gaming group.

meng would like to ask you the following:

How much does system matter? In particular, how much does Dread depend on its mechanics in order to achieve the right feel, and how much depends on the players?
System matters. For example, if a player's decision to use a particular spell or stunt required consulting tables, rolling damage, rolling additional modifiers such as saving throws or dodges, and so forth, then the game's frantic momentum would be lost. In short, Dread would be hampered by a more complex system. It might turn into something interesting, but it definitely wouldn't be Dread anymore.

However, players are crucial to any good gaming experience. In the same way that both oxygen and water are necessary to sustain human life, a good system and a good gaming group are necessary to enjoy any game.

Rafael, thank you for taking the time to answer a few questions for Rochester Gamers' Community. We appreciate your time and your game. I look forward to running more demos of Dread in the near future.

Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you about my game! I am also extremely grateful for all the support and enthusiasm that you have shown for Dread. It means a lot to me.